posted 07-31-2005 09:43 AM               

Is it possible that ordinary footsoldier can defeat heavy knights, well trained, well armed ant protected by armors?

How can this happen?

Did it happen an other time during middle ages?

posted 07-31-2005 10:44 AM               

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Originally posted by Brock H:
Pikes backed by crossbows, arquebuses or muskets, depending upon the time period. 5-6,000 should be enough, roughly equal numbers of each.

Knights in armor are very expensive and take years to train, having to grow up training. My army would be much cheaper and a couple months should be plenty to turn raw peasants into trained replacements.

Cost, time to train and battlefield effectiveness are all reasons why knights passed into history. They were doomed once infantry appeared with the discipline and elan to stand up to their charge.

Edit: Oh, to answer your other questions:

The ground: marhsy, muddy, on a hill, behind a river, whatever will give me an advantage.

Tactics: anchor one or both flanks on a feature or terrain the knights can't negotiate. If I can't do that, refuse my flanks by posting forces in echelon behind the main line with the reserve facing the rear in case of attack from that quarter. If they're needed, they can be faced back to the front.

When the knights are in range, shoot them with the missile weapons. Receive their charge on the pikes and when they're stopped have the missile troops go on the offensive with their secondary weapons of maces, hammers, pickaxes, etc.

[This message has been edited by Brock H (edited 07-29-2005).]

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posted 07-31-2005 09:32 PM               

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Originally posted by Marco:
Did it happen an other time during middle ages?

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It happened a number of times. Courtrai, Bannockburn, the aforementioned Morgarten, Laupen, Sempach, the Swiss war with Charles the Bold of Burgundy, the English victories over France in the Hundred Years War (longbowmen and dismounted knights acting as heavy infantry). And they came damn close at Hastings, being beaten by a combined arms army, not just by knights. This is by no means a complete list.

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How can this happen?

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Basically, the infantry was disciplined, motivated, well-positioned and used good tactics. Really, knights were easier to beat than you think. The only reason they dominated in Europe for so long is because for centuries the infantry they faced was mostly poorly trained, ill-equiped and badly motivated. Once trained, disciplined and motivated infantry appeared they were doomed.

And let's remember that in most of those battles the knights won, infantry was present. The chroniclers who recorded the knights' victories mostly came from the upper class and were writing for the upper class. I suspect they never gave the infantry due credit for their role in any victory.

posted 07-31-2005 09:34 PM               

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Originally posted by GoneDumbSEED:
- Tak (This post was used WITHOUT permission )

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No problems here.

posted 08-03-2005 08:59 PM               

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Originally posted by Boabdil:
The footsoldiers didn't attack the knight, but his horse. Even the best knight is a dead knight when lying on the ground and beeing attacked by a mob of peasants armed with heavy polearms and halberds.

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Not quite; better trained militiamen were very able to pull a knight of his horse. And yes, when they failed to dismount a knight directly, they'd go for the horse. Still, a dismounted knight could be a formidable warrior. At the eve of the battle of Courtrai, Willem van Gulik, the Flemish commander told his men 'a knight is worth ten footsoldiers'. Only to add, that if the infantry maintained their ranks, they could defeat the knights.
Let's face it, the city militias consisted of trained footsoldiers.

Marco, I think I've said this before, but in order to form up and gain speed, in good order, a cavalry unit needs the right soil conditions and plenty of room. When deprived of one of these, they're prety harmless.
At Courtrai, after crossing the 'Groeningenbeek' (which brought the cavalry to an almost stand-still) and forming up again, there wasn't enough space left to gain speed. At Azincourt, the muddy field made it impossible to gain speed. And there are many more examples where the heavy cavalry shouldn't have been sent forward in the first place.

Regards, Roel

posted 09-05-2005 05:45 PM               

Swiss Infantry Troops

Halberdiers: Swiss unifoms were influenced by German, Italian, and Burgundian fashion. The first record of the white Swiss cross dates to the Battle of Laupen, 1339. This appears to have been the major field recognition sign of the Swiss, and was fashioned from white cloth and sewn onto the hose or doublet. Later the cross appeared stamped on the halberd, the dagger and on a ribbon worn diagonally across the chest. It is uncertain as to what extent cantonal colors were worn.
There were two main types of horn employed by the Swiss. A smaller calling horn was probably used to rally crossbowmen and handgunners skirmishing in front of the main columns. The larger war horns or Harnsthorner-as shown above-were mainly used to create panic in the enemies ranks and to sound the general advance.

Pikemen: Contrary to popular belief, the pike was not especially favored by the Swiss during the early period of the 15th century. First records of its use in great numbers date back to 1425; doubtless this was in response to the shattering experience at Arbedo. The pike did not in fact originate in Switzerland, but in Italy. It is with the Lucerne contingent that the pike makes its first appearance among the Swiss. There seems to have been some caution on the part of the Confederates in establishing the pike as the principal staff weapon. Detailed military lists from Zurich dated 1443 show the pikes made up only a quarter of the city and cantonal contingent. Certainly as an individual arm the pike was an unmanageable weapon and a hinderance to mobility. During the march or advance the pike was either held about two feet from the point and trailed along on the ground, or carried in bundles on the train. This was due to the fact that the pike vibrated considerably which caused discomfort when held on the shoulder during a march.
Considerable training must have been required for its effective use, for it was only in phalanx formation that the weapon could realize its devastating potential. Historical reconstructions have shown that rigorous discipline and skill must have been required to master the pike in close formation, as it has been found that in the front four ranks of the square there was a danger that the pike heads of the fourth rank might pierce the necks of the men in the front rank. The pike measured on average 5m, weighed about 5lbs. and was composed of two parts; a haft of ash, sometimes pointed at the base, and a head which took on either a dagger, 'frog's mouth' or 'leaf' shape. The construction of pike shafts became a special craft in Switzerland by the later half of the 15th century, as the pike became a crucial weapon in the Confederates' tactical formation, and the cities usually appointed a special official known as the Baumeister to control the quality of such arms.
Other staff weapons attributed to the Swiss, notably the Mordaxt-a type of halberd with a long spike typical of the Zurich region-and the Lucerne hammer-a type of pole-axe with a hammer head of four points opposite a single point and carrying a long, straight spike on the end- date generally from the 16th century. Armor was expensive and heavy, although the lighter Milanese pieces soon found their way into Confederate armories. Captured sets were often kept and re-issued, and very often pikemen in particular (who were principally recruited from the lower classes) wore motley sets of armor. It can safely be assumed that those pikemen with full sets made up the front ranks of the Haufen, while those wearing only breast plates and minor accoutrements would have been delegated to the center and rear.

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posted 09-06-2005 10:03 PM               

[PDF] Osprey 94 The Swiss at War 1300-1500.doc
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
... In one last-ditch effort the Swiss succeeded in hacking their way through the
surrounding Milanese foot and ... Arbedo marks a watershed in Swiss military history ... http://history.chgnet.ru/Paul/Books/SwAtWar.pdf - Supplemental Result - Similar pages

At Arbedo, the Swiss were defeated by dismounted men at arms.

[This message has been edited by mbargas (edited 09-06-2005).]