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"Boiling oil" -- or not?

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Author	Topic: "Boiling oil" -- or not?
WastedEduc New Member	posted 12-29-2003 11:59 PM This topic recently came up on a military history listserv. Someone asked what kind of "boiling oil" would have been used in medieval siege warfare. The more I thought about this, the more I wondered if it were that common anyway, and even if so, would it have been hot pitch used to repel attackers -- or hog fat, or olive oil? Or just plain old boiling water? ------------------ Fetterlock IP: 24.167.33.209
Roel Oosterop Member	posted 12-30-2003 05:36 PM Most probably boiling water. Why waste a precious commodity (like vegetable oil), when ordinary water will do the job just as well? Admitted, by the time you can throw it over the wall (pun intended ), temperature has dropped to somewhere between 80 and 90 Celsius; more than enough to knock a man out of action. Even if it won't kill instantaneously, when enough skin is affected, the person will die sooner or later (probably sooner). I'll leave it to the physicians or fire-fighters to call the exact percentage of 'skin burn' that is lethal. Regards, Roel IP: 195.240.54.112
Husaria Member	posted 12-30-2003 05:39 PM Also red hot sand ------------------ The world is my oyster Which I with sword will open IP: 12.22.103.228
WastedEduc New Member	posted 12-30-2003 05:45 PM Thanks. I had wondered the same thing about wasting good oil, but I didn't want to tell the "academic historians" that...There would probably have been a water supply within the fortress/castle to allow water for defensive purposes, and good hot sand would not only put a hitch in the stride of attackers, but probably slow them down somewhat! Those are both eminently more practical heated substances than oil. ------------------ Fetterlock IP: 24.167.33.209
Marshal Member	posted 12-31-2003 01:14 AM Of course, if the castle were in someplace like Syria one might not have the water to waste, either...or, for that matter, the wood to burn to make the fire to heat water or oil... IP: 159.87.49.218
WastedEduc New Member	posted 12-31-2003 01:17 AM quote: Originally posted by Marshal: Of course, if the castle were in someplace like Syria one might not have the water to waste, either...or, for that matter, the wood to burn to make the fire to heat water or oil... ------------------ Fetterlock IP: 24.167.33.209
WastedEduc New Member	posted 12-31-2003 01:21 AM And I have a suspicion that while various hot liquids were sometimes used, the "boiling oil" scene is more in the popular imagination and not a staple of every single siege. Probably depended on where the siege was and what was ready to hand -- and some of the more popular imagery may have come from the Crusades, where oil and hot pitch were probably more available, or in the Byzantine world where "Greek fire" was known. IP: 24.167.33.209
Connor Member	posted 01-06-2004 06:58 PM quote: ...boiling water. quote: Also red hot sand And rocks! IP: 65.29.202.250
Trescuinge Member	posted 01-07-2004 03:43 PM I think that boiling oil may stick to the skin longer than water does, sort of like burning nylon. I imagine that you could concoct some sort of oil based mixture that would really stick and retain heat longer than water, a kind of medieval napalm. If you were to use boiling water, you would want to make sure that it was well used first. That would save the defenders from having to leave the walls for rest-stop breaks. IP: 68.36.207.152
Connor Member	posted 01-07-2004 08:48 PM We call this sticky firy substance "Greek Fire" my friend. No one has yet to figure out the composition of this stuff in modern times... This stuff was dumped, shot from hoses, even thrown in pottery "grenades." Mainly the Byzantines,Persians and the like are credited with the use of this stuff, but I have seen later period (14th century) naval battles with firehoses--not the nice kind, mind you. ------------------ And remember the saying children,"Never dance the Riverdance on the third hour after high noon." IP: 65.29.202.250
Oswulf Member	posted 01-08-2004 06:37 AM According to Irish chronicles boiling beer was poured on Vikings beseiging the English city of Chester in 907 IP: 217.43.72.213
Trescuinge Member	posted 01-08-2004 02:20 PM I found a couple of recipes from the Greek general, Aineias, who wrote about 355 BC: "When the enemy do bring up shelters you should pour pitch and throw tow and sulpher over them and then drop on them a burning bundle of sticks tied to a rush rope." and, "fill bags with pitch, sulpher, tow, powdered frankincense-gum, and pine sawdust, set light to them, and place them next to anything of the enemy's that you want to burn down." He recommends using vinegar to put out fires that the enemy starts, or smearing bird-lime onto your combustible structures beforehand. In all his advice, he never mentions pouring boiling liquids on the attackers. Maybe that is more of a medieval tactic. IP: 68.36.207.152
Connor Member	posted 01-08-2004 04:53 PM Oswulf: Wasn't there another thread where you mentioned that? Didn't the defenders throw bee-hives after the beer or something? ------------------ And remember the saying children,"Never dance the Riverdance on the third hour after high noon." IP: 65.29.202.250
Kel Rekuta Member	posted 01-08-2004 07:01 PM quote: Originally posted by Connor: And rocks! Every village and manor house that slaughtered animals used as much of the carcass as was possible. This included rendering the fat into usable oil. The process of boiling down chunks of fat takes days and constant attention. Oil from cattle and pigs can be used as a coarse lubricant for axles and other moving parts. It can also be used as leather and cloth dressing, to waterproof or condition. Sheep tallow has a slightly higher melting point and is therefore more stable at ambient temperature. It is particularly useful for inexpensive candles. Sheep tallow was extensively used to make windows, by soaking linen and stretching over a frame. The classic wooden cross framed window you often see in late medieval rural paintings was not glass but linen or parchment treated with tallow. Now why am I telling you this? Because there would often be a big pot of hot oil available to large medieval households, including those resident in castles. If it was handy, throw it at anyone stupid enough to attack your home. The simplest explanations are usually true. IP: 65.93.221.114
gworraent Member	posted 01-08-2004 07:03 PM i know for sure that they dropped burning sulfur to stop miners, i also know that the attackers would cuck heads and dead bodies and cows that had diseases to try to spread an epedemic. greek fire was later invented quote: Originally posted by WastedEduc: This topic recently came up on a military history listserv. Someone asked what kind of "boiling oil" would have been used in medieval siege warfare. The more I thought about this, the more I wondered if it were that common anyway, and even if so, would it have been hot pitch used to repel attackers -- or hog fat, or olive oil? Or just plain old boiling water? IP: 66.72.233.162
Oswulf Member	posted 01-09-2004 05:58 PM quote: Originally posted by Connor: Oswulf: Wasn't there another thread where you mentioned that? Didn't the defenders throw bee-hives after the beer or something? Yep, so the story goes IP: 217.42.173.41
Brock H Member	posted 01-09-2004 09:49 PM quote: Originally posted by gworraent: greek fire was later invented What do you mean by later? Greek fire was used in 678 AD to destroy an Arab fleet attacking Constantinople. IP: 69.26.9.238
Connor Member	posted 01-10-2004 03:00 PM quote: Originally posted by Kel Rekuta: Every village and manor house that slaughtered animals used as much of the carcass as was possible. This included rendering the fat into usable oil. The process of boiling down chunks of fat takes days and constant attention. Oil from cattle and pigs can be used as a coarse lubricant for axles and other moving parts. It can also be used as leather and cloth dressing, to waterproof or condition. Sheep tallow has a slightly higher melting point and is therefore more stable at ambient temperature. It is particularly useful for inexpensive candles. Sheep tallow was extensively used to make windows, by soaking linen and stretching over a frame. The classic wooden cross framed window you often see in late medieval rural paintings was not glass but linen or parchment treated with tallow. Now why am I telling you this? Because there would often be a big pot of hot oil available to large medieval households, including those resident in castles. If it was handy, throw it at anyone stupid enough to attack your home. The simplest explanations are usually true. Oh, oh! And rocks, too! Wait... Did I-- Never mind. Anyway, I'm beginning to dislike gworraent as much as I disliked "the S-word." The older guys know who I'm talkin' about... Please back up your claims or at least say, "I think." Instead of, "Im teh mateser of al exiisstence!" IP: 65.29.202.250
Sleel Member	posted 02-02-2004 01:26 AM I'm sure water or sand would be effective, but it's awfully hard to set fire to water. After you dump hot fat, pitch, or oil onto the enemy, you can always dump a few torches onto the mess and have screaming men on fire running around, generally adding to the confusion, and setting more things on fire. Flammables could also be used to set fire to towers, rams, turtles, and other siege machines. In siege warfare, doing something to destroy or damage the enemy's siege machines is just as valuable as killing or maiming his men. Given the choice, I'd have flammable stuff in my boiling pot o' something. Tangentally related, chemical and biological warfare is almost as old as organized warfare. Check out this link for a brief overview of some more well known instances. http://www.ivytech7.cc.in.us/ptk/fsheep.htm Caustics like potash (lye), lime, or lunar silver (nitrate of silver) were certainly known and _may_ have been used in warfare. However, I couldn't find anything conclusive online about actual useage. Anyone have a reference? Hydroxides are particularly nasty since they dissolve fats and proteins, allowing them to penetrate farther than acids would. Powdery caustic compounds can sift into hard to reach areas. The onset is delayed but becomes worse over time unless counteracted. They can be inhaled (which causes breathing problems and possibly permanent damage), and can cause temporary or permanent blindness if they get into the eyes. Trying to wash away any of these substances with plain water could cause the effects to be worse since hydroxides produce heat when mixed with water. Aqua regia (a hydrochloric and sulfuric acid mixture) was also known at the time. Sulfur compounds mixed with pitch were used by the Greeks to produce a nasty smoke. I'm pretty sure the composition of that was still known. [This message has been edited by Sleel (edited 02-02-2004).] IP: 210.141.241.34
Curmudgeon Member	posted 02-02-2004 05:55 AM I've always wondered how one would go about pouring a cauldeon of boiling oil over a parapet. If the oil was in fact boiling, the cauldron would be... warmish. Would they use a small crane and tackle? I can't see it being done by hand. Also, would there have been special firepits on the battlements specifically for the purpose? IP: 67.164.142.153
Kel Rekuta Member	posted 02-02-2004 08:36 AM As we are deep into speculation here, I'd guess a bucket brigade from the rending cauldron to the wall. Anything from clay cooking pots to wooden buckets would work. There would have been no shortage of kettles and pots in a medieval household. I doubt a pot of fat on an open fire on the parapet walk would have been such a wise plan. IP: 65.95.158.30
Connor Member	posted 02-02-2004 05:23 PM I've seen wooden stretcher-like devices in which the cauldron hung on the two long poles and they were connected in turn with two planks, one on either side of the cauldron. ------------------ And remember the saying children,"Never dance the Riverdance on the third hour after high noon." IP: 65.29.202.250
Marshal Member	posted 02-02-2004 06:20 PM quote: Originally posted by Sleel: Aqua regia (a hydrochloric and sulfuric acid mixture) was also known at the time. I think you meant a mix of hydrochloric and nitric acids; sulfuric is, if memory serves, a later invention ( c. 1500's? ) than the other two... IP: 159.87.49.218
Sleel Member	posted 02-04-2004 08:59 PM quote: Originally posted by Marshal: I think you meant a mix of hydrochloric and nitric acids; sulfuric is, if memory serves, a later invention ( c. 1500's? ) than the other two... Whoops, should've checked it before posting. I meant nitric, really I did. IP: 210.141.241.34

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