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 Two-handed katzbalger?
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| Author | Topic: Two-handed katzbalger? |
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Abb314 Member |
posted 03-31-2002 06:02 PM
   
Patrick Barta makes what appears to be a two-handed katzbalger (see below). I've also seen some landsknecht woodcuts that depict similar two-handed katzbalgers. Has anyone seen an antique two-handed katzbalger? Anyone know how common these swords were, compared to the zweihander that everyone normally thinks of? ------------------
[This message has been edited by Abb314 (edited 04-01-2002).] IP: 134.10.22.247 |
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Just a Bum Member |
posted 03-31-2002 11:42 PM
I never heard such a thing, I assumed they allways were one handed side-arms ------------------ IP: 128.205.146.28 |
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Triton2 Member |
posted 04-01-2002 08:02 AM
On a recent trip to the Royal Ontario Museum I saw an extremely long say 32-40 inche katzbalger styled sword but it was still a single hander. I will post a picture if you like... ------------------ IP: 65.208.22.25 |
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M. Quan New Member |
posted 04-01-2002 04:37 PM
I do have a picture of an antique S hilted zweihander that I gleaned off of a German Auction site...can't find it right now...and I have to run to work...but I will try and post it later. Michael IP: 12.233.203.63 |
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Craig Member |
posted 04-01-2002 10:28 PM
There are several examples of these type of swords in two handed form from both art and example. The Katzbalger type seems to have been done in all sizes. There is the famous drawing of a Landesknecht trudging along with a two handed Katzbalger over his shoulder inscribed with the motto "I lost all my money gambling". Craig IP: 24.26.186.227 |
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M. Quan New Member |
posted 04-02-2002 03:27 AM
Here are the pictures Hope this works. Michael [This message has been edited by M. Quan (edited 04-02-2002).] [This message has been edited by M. Quan (edited 04-02-2002).] IP: 12.233.203.63 |
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Tomaz Member |
posted 04-02-2002 06:39 AM
This seems to be something of an oddity. As far as I know, the term 'katzbalger' was aplied only to one-handed swords with that characteristic S-shaped guard. The katzbalger could vary in length and blade shape somewhat. I've seen a good number of surviving examples, some of which were pretty short while others could reach substantial lenghts (up to a meter or even a little more as Triton has noted). However, all such swords were invariably one-handed. The zweihander was a very different sword altogether. Just because some of them had an S-shaped guard doesn't make them katzbalgers, though. They were still zweihanders due to their weight, length and specific blade design even though the katzbalger hilt might indeed look somewhat out of place on a two-handed sword. IP: 194.249.2.31 |
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Abb314 Member |
posted 04-02-2002 12:39 PM
So, does anyone know how common these hilts were for zweihanders? Were these a rarity, or were they more common than the sort with the parrying hooks and long quillions? ------------------ IP: 134.10.22.247 |
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Tomaz Member |
posted 04-04-2002 03:20 AM
It wasn't at all unusual for 16th c. swords to be fitted with all sorts of seemingly inappropriate hilts. That holds especially true for cheaper low-end weapons intended to be issued to the constantly growing professional armies of the period. That said, a katzbalger guard on a zweihander is still a great (if not extreme) rarity. I've only seen one such example on a photo once but never in person - even though I've examined a considerable number of zweihanders (perhaps as many as a hundred examples, possibly more) in various European museums. IP: 194.249.2.149 |
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Therion Member |
posted 05-14-2003 10:01 AM
This thread was recently mentioned in a discussion of katzbalger guards over on the Medieval European Swords section of the Ethnographic Weapons Forum - (http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum5/HTML/000096.html). In response to the original question - plate #128 of "The Triumph of Maximilian" shows a squad of ten landsknechts holding two-handed katzbalgers. The guards look more like a double loop, but that's clearly a problem with perspective in the woodcut, as several of the landsknechts have traditional short katz's and the guards are identical to those on the big-uns. Way back in the dawn of modern reproduction time before Museum Replicas was bought by Steelless Windycrafts, MR offered a two-handed katzbalger made in Germany by Oskar Kolombatovitch. Most of my droogies went ga-ga over Oskar's "Austrian Masterpiece" longsword, but I still have the two-handed kat I bought back then. Overall length is 53", the blade is 41". ------------------ IP: 148.63.151.2 |
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Cyborion Member |
posted 05-14-2003 04:04 PM
Hal, do you have a picture of that 2 hander? I came a bit late to getting MRL catalogs so missed out on the early ones... So I definitely don't recall the 2 handed katz. Wouldn't mind owning one some day, though...  Scott B. IP: 65.247.156.191 |
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Triton2 Member |
posted 05-14-2003 11:58 PM
I second that, I wouldn't mind seeing it either. ------------------ IP: 199.174.145.88 |
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Therion Member |
posted 05-16-2003 10:21 AM
Okay, will do - I'll post pictures in a couple of days (need to clean it up a bit). ------------------ IP: 148.63.151.2 |
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Atrim Moderator |
posted 05-17-2003 05:00 PM
Yeah, Hal, please post a photo.... And if you have room, please bring that pup to Not-Livermore early next month.......love to see it. Looking forward to seeing you then. Auld Dawg IP: 165.121.35.210 |
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Husaria Member |
posted 06-04-2003 12:41 AM
Can't personally vouch for 2 handed katzes but the A&A web site now has one in their custom weapons section, which is 50" overall and they say is based on an original in a Vienna museum. Also, the "Fine Arms and Armor, Treasures in the Dresden Collection" catalog shows a Landsknecht sword with a figure 8 katz guard and a 88cm (34.6") blade figure 43b ------------------ IP: 64.169.116.65 |
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