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| Author | Topic: Swords of Islam |
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Valnorran Member |
posted 09-18-2001 07:32 PM
  
I have a few questions about the swords used in the Islamic world. First, I always thought the term scimitar was simply an anglacized version of shamshir, which I took to be a single edged, single handed sword with a curved blade and usually a small section of the crossguard lapping over the blade. Some say the scimitar is the same as a kilij, but I thought the kilij had a broader blade with a greater curve. Perhaps it's like the difference between a longsword and a hand-and-a-half sword (spelling!). Also, I only recently discovered that the Arabs were not using curved blades during the crusades. If that is the case, what did they use? I saw a picture in a book (A Glossary of Arms and Armor, don't remember the author) that showed what it said was an Arabic sword that was straight with a tip so wide and broad that it looked impossible to stab with. I don't remember what they called this sword. It reminded me of some Greek swords I've seen. When did Arabs and other groups in their part of the world start using curved swords, and what influenced them to do so? ------------------ IP: 209.124.228.74 |
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Jim McDougall Member |
posted 09-18-2001 09:03 PM
Valnorran, You have it right about the term scimitar, this is a transliteration of the Persian 'shamshir' describing the curved sabre. Thus the 'scimitar' is actually a term rather than a weapon form. The kilij is actually the Ottoman term for their deeply curved sabres with a widened tip which is termed the yelman. These raised false edges in the terminus of the blade to the tip added momentum and follow thru in the cut. While these familiar sabres are typically associated with the Ottomans, the yelman of course often existed on other Central Asian and Indian sabres including shamshirs. Identifying Islamic sabres is difficult to put into distinct categories as there was considerable diffusion of forms. Up to and through the Crusades, the swords used by Arabs were typically double edged broadswords similar to those of the Crusaders. However the Arab swords had begun to develop a slightly canted hilt at about this time reflecting influence of curved sabres of Central Asia and the nomadic Turkic tribes as well as the Mongols. The development of the sabre gets quite complex, and there are varying theories, but most seem to place its development in western China around Turkestan. A good book for information on this topic is "Islamic Arms & Armour" edited by Robert Elgood. It is incredibly expensive so I would recommend interlibrary loan. There are good illustrations of early Arab broadswords now in the Topkapi Museum in Istanbul. IP: 206.50.88.2 |
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AdamWRose New Member |
posted 09-18-2001 09:08 PM
Just because the word "scimitar" is (likely) derived from the word "shamshir" does not mean that they mean exactly the same thing. In fact, I think you'd be hard pressed to give an exact definition of "scimitar" as it seems to be used by many as a catch-all term for any eastern curved sword (shamshir, kilij, tulwar etc.), as well as any number of fantasy/hollywood "middle eastern" designs. [This message has been edited by AdamWRose (edited 09-18-2001).] IP: 24.218.78.238 |
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Gregg Member |
posted 09-21-2001 01:11 AM
The origin of the curved sabre is still a bit of a mystery. One theory places its origin in northern India, though I tend to agree with Jim that its origin is probably Chinese, or at least China’s steppe border. The single-edged straight (cavalry) sword MAY have originated with the Sassanians, or possibly even the Kushan, and was then adapted by most central Asian tribes (I'm not sure about that, I'll have to double check my sources). But there's little doubt that the curved sabre was introduced to the Islamic world by nomadic Central Asian tribes. Examples of fully developed curved sabres have been found in steppe nomad contexts dated as far back as the 6th century, though even then it may already have been a well established type throughout the steppe. As a side note, it should also be remembered that the curved sabre never won out over straight, and both continued to exist side-by-side. In fact, it can be argued that the debate over "straight" vs. "curved" lasted all the way up 'till World War I, where new designs were still being introduced for cavalry use utilizing both styles. Gregg IP: 152.163.207.183 |
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Cyborion Member |
posted 09-21-2001 01:44 AM
Gregg...Yep, the curved versus straight was argued right up to the time when Cavalry and sword use started to fade away on battlefields. That is the military side, ofcourse. We *still* see this debated by folks even now, though, on the academic side. I expect that is one debate that will never be definitely answered as long as different people have different preferences... IP: 207.66.85.60 |
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dsunlin Member |
posted 09-21-2001 11:28 AM
I know this is a somewhat grim tangent, but I understand that in Saudi Arabia today, executions are beheadings performed with a sword. Is this sword a classical Arabian "scimitar", or is something special used? IP: 12.146.128.15 |
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Arundel Member |
posted 09-21-2001 09:35 PM
yeah, I've wondered the same thing about saudi beheading swords but i've never gotten around to posting, seems that those people would know a far bit more than most on sword performance. IP: 12.32.34.13 |
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Olaf Member |
posted 09-23-2001 08:07 AM
AFAIK, the sword used isn't a scimitar, but some ugly thing with a bulging middle and a flaring tip. 125 people were beheaded in Saudi Arabia last year, most of them after a cursory trials with no access to lawyers or interpreters (most were foreign nationals). IP: 195.100.146.163 |
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